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IIT-JEE reform panel moots single entrance test, to seek public opinion
I graduated from IIT more than a decade back. Our entire batch (including seniors) is currently sitting in US and Europe as we see in Facebook after one and half decades and every single classmate (only 10%) who applied for IIM cleared it the rest went to top engineering and management institutes in US/ UK/ France/ Germany , why and how? The selection process during our time was unique, every person was a gem. The number of IITs were only 6 and the seats were limited and no reservations for OBCs. The selection process was 2 phased, primary objective type questions and then secondary subjective questions which were very tricky and you couldnot clear them by mere studying for class XII examination system. The fault with the new current system is several 1) The reservations - Reservations will not uplift the lower class but rather bring the entire education level down. The reservations should be at a primary education level. 2) The new system has increased seats. The increased seats will lose the primary advantage of IIT had over other institutes over student teacher ratio. The brand IIT had was because of quality of education, teachers and students. This is getting diluted which defeats the very purpose of reservations to get a better education. 3) The number of attempts has been reduced to 2 and single entrance has been made for all engineering college. This will put a huge pressure on performing in that single exam. What if you fall sick or are not well prepared that year?
the idea of single exams will result in some students choosing NITS in core branches over IITS in non core ones,which as a result reduce the prestige of IITS bcoz then what will happen is evry 2nd or 3rd good ranker will be commenting that he has left iit for NITs ,rest if you consider it overall i feel it will be a good idea(if papers are set considering all the aspects) bcoz it will reduce the pressure of too many exams .
I am an ex IIT Computer Science student. Having a single entrance for ALL engineering entrance exams in India is a really terrible idea, although having an entrance examination for the top 10 colleges perhaps has some merit. The problematic issue in having a single system is that the level of difficulty in the underlying examinations required varies by an order of magnitude. You need a really tough test for JEE because otherwise everybody will marks in the 90s and differences in this range won't be enough to rank students reliably. On the other hand, if the underlying examination is too tough for everybody, it will work for the IIT students. However, students getting into the 20th college will all get very very low scores. So again, ranking will not be reliable. Besides, what's the advantage in consolidation? Its much better to standardize the curriculum and that's all that is needed. Challenge in implementation of any of these ideas is that no authority to mandate these things - education is a state subject an state funded. So each state is autonomous and as expected guards its autonomy zealously. A good thing in this instance! Sometimes having the power to tamper and make whole-sale changes allows hair brained ideas to be implemented without any consideration of basic fundamentals. What IIT professors sometimes fail to realize (in their hubris) is that the selection process is the secret behind the golden IIT brand equity. Not what is taught there!
anuragp (Delhi) replies to PP
23 Apr, 2011 11:10 AM
23 Apr, 2011 11:10 AM
Although I feel std 10 and std 12 performances should be added to the criteria, I agree totally with you that the difficulty of the entrance test should not be diluted. In fact, even the objective type questions have to be kept to a minimum. The excellent standard of the JEE questions is really the differentiating factor. For the other engineering exams, the entrance can be made common. Heck, one could even allow for a certain weightage for such a common exam in the IIT selection process. Maybe even include other criteria that are also indicators like 10th and 12th Board honor rolls, NTS, RMOs, etc. Including different indicators ensures that good candidates do not lose out because of just one bad day or one bad test.
ExIITian (Denver) replies to PP
23 Apr, 2011 04:44 AM
23 Apr, 2011 04:44 AM
100% agree with you. I dont know which year you graduated in. During our period there were just 5 IITs and IT BHU and they also added new seats new IITs and reservations now. I have even heard many IITians dont find jobs any more from the campus, I dont know if it is true. During our time the brand was because of the JEE students. We looked at B.Tech students differently than M.Tech students. I also agree that normalizing the scores of the students in some rural areas may look like they performed better or they got better score because of easier exams. The class XII exams should be made the same level throughout India to begin with. Or maybe we are all just wrong they dont need bright students any more. They are looking at the mass than quality or brand.
iitjee should continue in its present format. however the board cutoff should be top 5% of each board (something in the line of criteria followed by iiser for their board topper channel of admission). top 5% may be taken as the average of preceding three years of each board. this will balance the disparity of marking by different boards.
peter_mannings (Noida) replies to dku
22 Apr, 2011 11:54 PM
22 Apr, 2011 11:54 PM
Calculating a per board basis percentile and using that percentile across nation would to some extent normalize the process. But then that does not eliminate the one month exam sluggers versus real thinkers or problem solvers. Until the second issue is fixed, there is a requirement for something like a jee, without the spoon feeding of the coaching center. I think a student will be able think independently if he thinks through the problem and decides to use combination or permutation rules in math, or dependent or independent events to calculate probability, rather than experienced prof in the coaching centers saying them, if you find these keywords in the problem definition then apply so and so rule. Students of the first kind is what iit's were found for by Pt. Nehru. Whether or not the board exam process is fixed, let jee remain as a compliment for a student who did not do very good in the exam but cracked the jee. Lets make it a weighted average of everything. When iit selection process becomes streamlined and influence free from coaching centers, then iisc should make it easy for iit grads to do research there.
peter_mannings (Noida) replies to peter_mannings
23 Apr, 2011 01:59 AM
23 Apr, 2011 01:59 AM
btw, i am an ex iitian with less than 150 air, without the help of coaching centers. so it is not a whining. i could not do my research at iisc because i thought facility wise us univs are equivalent, with more prospective in us. so to attract research iisc should do its part by giving credit to those who have already gone through the grind in addition to doing its own direct selection process.
Please dont change the IIT JEE at all. It is perfect as it is now.
I am a graduate of EE from IITMadras. I was placed 186th in the JEE. When I joined IIT, I realized that there is a major differenence in the way the CBSE papers are graded through out the country. I was the topper in my disctrict in Jharkhad scoring 83% cumulative. High 90s in maths, physics and chemistry and in the 60s and 70s in English and Hindi.
It was In IIT that I realized that kids from some parts of the country were getting in the 90s in the languages too, something that was unheard of in Jharkhand.
The Biggest disservice one can do to this counrtry is to change the JEE system especially if XII marks are used for admission purposes.
I think, the best way to improve education in the country is to ensure that the private schools take in a quota of poor students from the local area, with the Govt paying the fees of the impoverished candidates.
Please do not fiddle with the only proper engineering college which gives proper engineering education . Is the Govt looking at all these mushroomed pvt engineering colleges from where the quality of people we are getting out are utterly useless .90 % of those who come out are not even half baked . Leave IIT ALONE.
bridgeiit (ranchi) replies to vIJAY
16 Sep, 2011 11:41 AM
16 Sep, 2011 11:41 AM
what ever you said is really interesteting. Ifell these coaching are giving best to society. they are providing dianmond from coal.
the present format of IIT-JEE is about the application of the science which a 12 th student goes through. This unique feature compels the student to apply their own mind. whereas other engg. enterance test are simple recall of the study which do not emphasize on analytical skills much. IITs are doing excellent job then why to change anything, will someone answer?
there is no solution for any of the problems India is facing. Because all these problems are a bi-product the mother-problem, "Humungous population of India". Whatever may the solution people may come up with, it will solve the problem temporarily and will become a problem after sometime. So if govt wants to check all the problems, it should first focus on controlling population growth. Just for curiosity, how can u sort out some lakhs of engineering throughout India into some thousands of seats in top engineering colleges. And if u make it as a single test, every student will attempt it and the above avg students, which constitute higher number, will be at disadvantage, because of percentile calculation system.
K (UK) replies to tara
22 Apr, 2011 08:16 PM
22 Apr, 2011 08:16 PM
you are absolutely correct. These politicians are just trying to spoil some of the very few good things in India, for the sake of their fame in the media. I do not understand how one can select students just based on a single exam. There will be some crores of students appearing if you make it a single exam.
These entrance exams (including JEE) kill the creativity of the students. some students may enjoy preparing for the exam and cracking it; but then education is not about being a gladiator and not about topping and getting in to some 9k seats in country with population of 120 crores. JEE is not helpful for rural students or students who are not good in English. Coaching classes mainly cater to upper middle class english speaking household who have very high aspirations for their children, probably because they did not do it. Now that they can afford to pay few lakhs, they push their wards. Students with no aptitude in engg crack the exam, complete 4 years of education and would never practice engg. Just look at sheer wate of resources and denial of opportunity to others. Just becuase we are too many numbers, entrace exam is not the only way to keep the gate. The elite and boston brahmins may have a different view but in my opinion JEE is just a way to keep out certain sections such as poor and marginalised, girls, minority communities etc. out of reckoning. It is just a perpetuation of brahminism in education. So called socialistic govt. of India is also hand in gloves with these minds by not increasing the number of seats in relation to increase in the population. Is IIT education making India a better place and Indians a better people? It is mostly making them greedy & rats, barring few exceptions. JEE & other entrance exams should be abolished totally.
As I have written before as well, the exam system of India is outdated and needs to be in line with the modern days. Person working at any fast food chain in north America or Europe is smarter than IIM or MDA in India. Reason..too much study and nothing in practical. Overall result, India is lacking behind in every area except corruption and population.
anuragp (Delhi) replies to Rajesh Srivastava
23 Apr, 2011 11:22 AM
23 Apr, 2011 11:22 AM
Your criticism about the coaching system is probably right, but you are incorrect on one point. Historically, the candidates selected have usually been from diverse social and economic backgrounds. If I may say so, many successful ones have been actually weak in language skills, and that includes English. The test is certainly not biased at all in favour of the English speaking or a certain section of the society.
RS replies to anuragp
23 Apr, 2011 12:00 PM
23 Apr, 2011 12:00 PM
You may be right in saying IIT per se have no bias. But look at the whole process. Market forces (most them ex-IITians as promoters or faculties) has made it such that without coaching one can't succeed. You even have charity coaching in Bihar. Barring these 30 people or so all other coaching centers are commercially driven. Do the classes that I have mentioned can afford these costs? Answer is emphatic no. In which case who are these lakhs of students who appear for the entrance? How is it that each of the big coaching centers anounce lakhs or thousands of numbers as their students. This malice is not limited to IIT alone but rest of the entrance exams as well. Entrance means extra coaching means affordability (barring charities) means selective exclusion. This is a no brainer logic and ground reality. More entrances of the kind you have this system will become more entrenched. Already listed companies, startups, venture funded ones are all getting ready for the game in anticipation of increase of seats. Invariably these orgs involve IIT alumnis. Where do all these end? This kind of slection is against nature, social justice and does not discover real talent.
anuragp replies to RS
23 Apr, 2011 05:04 PM
23 Apr, 2011 05:04 PM
Rajesh, I find a lot of good sense in all of the comments you are making. Here too, I am in complete agreement that the coaching mafia has hijacked the entrance exam. And that who cannot afford such expensive private tuition are left high and dry. Such is the sad state that it is rare for anyone to crack the test without having undergone such coaching. The Kota manufacturing line is quite famous- they produce enough robots, newer coaching establishments must have come up since. Now you have to also to look for solutions to the problem. There are no quick fixes unfortunately, just as there is no quick fix to the plight of 40 crore Indians that you have mentioned elsewhere. The biggest problem for IITs is how to allocate resources. Many lakh applicants and ~10,000 seats. Which of them do you give an opportunity to. Any competition is bound to be unfair to the majority. The best we can do is *Include long term indicators like 10th, 12th performance *Govt should outlaw formal coaching institutes, although underground coaching will still occur *Increase no of IITs, as well as seats. This is happening, fortunately *Start reputed undergraduate institutes in parallel to IITs in the fields of science and arts * Start providing quality education at the government level to all sections of society. But all this is not easy when we can't even feed all our people. The need of the hour is complete and radical change at all levels. Hope Anna movement becomes a catalyst to this.
Biju (Kuwait) replies to Rajesh Srivastava
23 Apr, 2011 12:23 AM
23 Apr, 2011 12:23 AM
Excellent comment so far. You have hit the hard reality. I can understand the criticism against this comment out of sheer frustration.
Aditya Oza (Vadodara) replies to Rajesh Srivastava
22 Apr, 2011 10:06 PM
22 Apr, 2011 10:06 PM
IIt`s have nothing to do with providing quality education and potential for research. It`s just that the most sharp and ambitious students gather at IITs. These guys can even do well in their life even without going to IIT. Apart from an exam , personal interviews should also be taken. This will make sure that when a guy comes to IIT , its because of his love for engineering , not to get a job in an MNC or for MBA in IIPM!! I would rather disagree with the 'brahmin' point. You are talking childish and naive things , my friend.
anuragp (Delhi) replies to Aditya Oza
23 Apr, 2011 11:34 AM
23 Apr, 2011 11:34 AM
"It`s just that the most sharp and ambitious students gather at IITs. These guys can even do well in their life even without going to IIT." Truer words were not spoken! It is really the selection of good candidates that is the high point of the system. Actually, some of the most brilliant minds are much better suited towards pure sciences than engineering. But we Indians have a herd mentality. Also, chances are sharp young minds would shine anyway, IIT or no IIT. A good education and opportunity is all that matters. On another point, I don't agree about the interview idea. That is a very subjective method and has other drawbacks- it is time consuming considering the huge number of candidates, susceptible to manipulations in such a cut throat competition, another pressure added to an overburdened kid. Lastly, many of these kids are young, shy, and not that good at communicating and interacting.
K (UK) replies to Aditya Oza
23 Apr, 2011 12:50 AM
23 Apr, 2011 12:50 AM
If we start looking like what you have said, "not to get a job in an MNC or for MBA in IIPM", there will be only 20% of genuine candidates who really about engineering and which branch they want to study. And let me tell you IITians have very much better knowledge about what they want do. But see in local low-grade college which are 100s in numbers. Please, please leave IITs to what they are now. I can't see some worthless people like you talking some nonsense about the great IITs.
N (India) replies to Rajesh Srivastava
22 Apr, 2011 09:14 PM
22 Apr, 2011 09:14 PM
So what exactly do you propose? Banning brahmins from takiing the JEE? Givig extra points or reservation to people from rural areas? SCs and STs already have seats reserved in the IITs. 'brahminism'??? what the hell are you talking about. Or are you proposing Serving pepole by joining the missionaries of charity for two years as a prerequiste to join the IITs? i cant understand what exactly do you want here.
But yes I do agree that these coaching centers should be banned completely. Also,JEE tll mid 90s used to be of high standards where each question used to be unique and tested examinees conceptual knowledge and understading of the subject. Thats what they need to change in the JEE.
thiru selvam (pune) replies to N
24 Apr, 2011 12:34 PM
24 Apr, 2011 12:34 PM
if you are an iitians, be afraid. Be afraid very much because there is blood on your hand. It is poor and honest tax payers' money that is making you get 1 year of best engineering edn in india at forty thousand rupees. So you can join mncs and serve the fair skin till you reach the glass door. Serving pepole by joining the missionaries of charity for two years as a prerequiste is not enough to remove that blood. pepl who hire a ca pay no tax in this country dear n and iitians instead of engineers do re-engineering dont serve the country also. abolish entrance how they do it in my state.
RS replies to N
22 Apr, 2011 10:31 PM
22 Apr, 2011 10:31 PM
Kyon, Kanta Laga Kya?
It is brahminical mindset that denies education to other than Male progencies of the same caste. JEE is such another system. By giving quotas you are only atoning the past sins and nothing more
Aditya Oza (Vadodara) replies to RS
23 Apr, 2011 12:21 AM
23 Apr, 2011 12:21 AM
I cannot see any point in your argument Mr RS. The country has been independent for over 60 years now. This is enough time for any class of backward people to improve their standard of living and live a life that they were denied earlier.The truth is that leaders of SC,ST ,OBC classes are busy in making statues.Get rid of these jerks first and then blame other communities.
RS replies to Aditya Oza
23 Apr, 2011 12:56 PM
23 Apr, 2011 12:56 PM
When you attend next interview or business meeting declare that you belong to SC ST and see where it leads you to.
Step out of your air-conditioned abode and get your hands dirty Aditya to see the real India. It has nothing to do with political leaders. There are too many of the downtrodden whom even the most ubiquitous leader cant reach. Are you aware that nearly 40 Crores of Indians do not have enough food to eat? If food prices are still low, it is because many in India can't afford three square meals a day. FYI 40 Crores is entire US population. If you belong to upper class have you made any efforts to atone the past in all these years or have you outsourced it to politicians? My argument is IIT is creating an oasis and entrance process is tool for that. Solution lies in upgrading at least 5 institutions in each state to the level of IIT or something even better like many readers have suggested to include humanities study as well. Like IISc is testing now. Thankfully, they have not created one more gate keeping process.
K (UK) replies to Rajesh Srivastava
22 Apr, 2011 07:57 PM
22 Apr, 2011 07:57 PM
I can see your frustration for failing to get into IIT. JEE is not helpful for rural students does not mean that we should abolish it. Not all those who passed 2 cant just qualify to get IIT quality education, when their number is about some crores. What really needs to be done is to improve the quality of education in rural as par with JEE quality. It surely keeps all those undeserved candidates away from the pile. I donno wat kind of education you had. Science is the basis for engineering. Engineering is just an application of science. And if you can not make that out with your brain you are not worth of an engineering degree. So the students should be thorough with the basics of Physics and Chemistry to excel in engineering and thats exactly what JEE test. And I am not able to understand what do u mean by aptitude in engineering. I dont think you yourself are clear about it. Please do not make any derogatory comments about IITs and IITians. If you do not know what we IITians contribute towards the economy of India, I request you to first know that. okay. Abolishing the current JEE test is the most stupid idea.
RS replies to K
22 Apr, 2011 10:52 PM
22 Apr, 2011 10:52 PM
I in financial services as well as BPO industry and have come across many IIT IIMs or IITs who are neither scientific in their temperament nor have now anything to do with physics, chemistry, engineering et al. That is exactly the reason why the selection process is entirely wrong plus the aptitude - the lack of it. Do you really think you need IIT IIMs to sell mutual funds and insurance policies to lead of bunch of 12th fail english speakers doing a graveyard shift? Is it not greed and rat race pushing them in to that? That aside, I am not confused that all engineers have science in them. Science is also about reaching the truth and not increasing your superstition by breaking a coconut before launching a rocket. Toughest exam in the world but no nobel?
K replies to RS
23 Apr, 2011 12:09 AM
23 Apr, 2011 12:09 AM
I got ur point. You have come across only those IITians who are not top talented in IITs. I accept that not everybody, who clears JEE and joins IIT, can succeed equally well in IITs. You must understand the quality of those who work in BPO and some avf-profile jobs in banks and finance. They might be from IITs, but not top students. I can say you have not come across real talent of IITs. And if you are looking for them in BPOs or so, they are the wrong place to look for us. You must know Infy Chairman Mr. Murthy. He is just one of many real talents of IITs. It is easy to get into MIT, Princeton, Harvard than getting into IITs.
RS replies to K
23 Apr, 2011 12:40 PM
23 Apr, 2011 12:40 PM
You must also be aware, Murthy missed UG IIT because he could not afford the cost. I agree with you that some of best engg talents have been discovered and nurtured by IIT. Should the talent be discovered only through JEE, a process already hijacked by coaching mafia (with active involvement of ex-IITians, the bad ones).
Are there good and bad IITians? Again it is the market which thinks that best talent is found in IIT (even if they are engineers) and offer all sorts of carrots and convert them in to bad ones. Heard Mr Buffet recently when in India. Can IIT really control such forces? Can it control the corporatised coaching mafia? Some of the state govts have started parallel coaching education centers. Can the situation get more grotesque than this? Can IIT really counsel the middle-class mindset that IIT engineering is not a passport to management level employment but an institution to create best breed of ENGINEERS in the world. Did Chetan have to really go through IIT IIM drill to become the best selling author that he finally became? Would he not become a better author had he graduated in English. What IIT has become finally other than a commercial brand which drives high-aspiration parents to push their wards towards coaching centers? Let me make it clear that I have no grouse against any of the IITians. They are good talent no doubt but only few thousands out of several crores. The elites a society has unnaturally nurtured at a very high cost.
Ranjan Kumar (Pune, INDIA) replies to Rajesh Srivastava
22 Apr, 2011 07:32 PM
22 Apr, 2011 07:32 PM
While I agree that students from the vernacular media do have some disadvantage (having experienced it first hand myself) I feel that JEE adds a clear qualitative edge to the understanding of science. Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics never were sensitive to castes, communities, and genders. Any linking is plainly absurd. I do agree that proficiency in sciences does not mean aptitude for engineering. But that is a good base to nurture talent. Again, we need to think out of the box to inspire our talent to the romance of engineering. It is urgent when you realize that India produces just about 1350 engineering PhDs. We need to think 'IIT ke saath bhi and IIT ke baad bhi' holistically and not tamper with one exam that India can be proud of
The purpose of JEE is to discover raw intelligence which does not necessarily mean measurement of performance in the last years. JEE tends to push the envelope for the students and that is a significant contribution of this exam even for those who do not make it. India would do well to retain this character of JEE. The Kota phenomenon is an anti-thesis of this goal and feeds burnt-out students to the IIT system. What is needed is innovation in JEE, not a dilution of JEE
vineet (delhi) replies to Ranjan Kumar
22 Apr, 2011 06:58 PM
22 Apr, 2011 06:58 PM
how can u expect a test of creativity and raw intelligence in cbse and board exams..?? i hope you have got some raw intelligence too :P
I guess the current system is cool and should remain as it is. Getting good marks in school and cracking jee are two different thing....while for jee you require pure intelligence and problem solving skills....getting good marks in school is just about patience and hardwork and its hard to compare or take both into account. And obv other factor like false marksheets are the problem that you cant solve atleast in the current situation. And cmon ppl we have many more problems to look upon.
Anil Mishra (USA) replies to Sanjeev
22 Apr, 2011 04:45 PM
22 Apr, 2011 04:45 PM
We talk about corruption by politicians and want a Jan Lokpal bill, but what to do corrupt process adopt by senior IIT profs. Amazing how they play with future of many deserving candidates. God bless India!
Here's my recommendation- Select entrants based on std 10, std 12, and IIT-JEE exam with a 50 percent emphasis on the JEE exam. For this a standardization of class 10 and 12 exams needs to be done. Some help from BITS Pilani people in this regard should be very useful. Why the above approach? Many good reasons. 1) It assesses progress over a period of years which is a better indicator of a student's ability than a single exam which could go wrong on a bad day 2) Spread over years, the parents and the student have a better chance of course correction, instead of being forced to 'try for engineering'. eg- lower marks in class 10 exams reduces chances for IIT, so parents can consider other options. 3) It reduces the stress on the students to perform well in a make-or-break exam. 4) Getting out of a single exam mindset also allows student time for creative opportunities for experimentation in the fields of science. We need to break the suffocating tradition of exam preparing, and instead really start promoting and nurturing the spirit of scientific innovation
Visweswara Rao (USA) replies to Prashant
22 Apr, 2011 05:51 PM
22 Apr, 2011 05:51 PM
I cherish my memories as an IIT student for eternity. After attending other US universities, I conclude that innovation comes with diversity. Diverse entrance requirements, diverse groups of applicants, and diverse syllabi, and so on. Future is not for rote learning. Fortunately, my days of IITKanpur were filled with creativity and hard work, not rote learning. Also, the problem with current coaching classes etc limit the well-roundedness. We need some injection of liberal Arts, and practical/project oriented assessments, not just a 3 hour or 6 hour exam. Just scoring 100% on exam is not a proof of future creative contribution.
indian (pune) replies to anuragp
22 Apr, 2011 02:53 PM
22 Apr, 2011 02:53 PM
we need to reduce the stress on the kids... in pune kids join iit classes and dont go to school... they end up doing bad in XII boards as well as 90 % dont get in to IIT... 65 kids stuffed in a classroom and taught no basics and skipping... they will become very bad engineers thats why only 15% of our engineers are employable... i agree to your points... IIT coaching should not over shadow schooling system... and a lot of people are earning a lot of money by playing with the future of kids... i am a teacher and when i get calls at the end of the session from these kids... i feel sad and angry as no one is here to regulate the COACHING MAFIA....
Bimal(Ex-IITian) (Kolkata) replies to anuragp
22 Apr, 2011 02:51 PM
22 Apr, 2011 02:51 PM
Man you should remember that in some states you can buy marks of 10th and 10 2.even in my state,pay around 20k you will get 80% mark each.so do you think these peoples will get only into IIT,then why not entrance like before
Biju (Kuwait) replies to indian
22 Apr, 2011 03:19 PM
22 Apr, 2011 03:19 PM
Absolute truth. Mass movement is required to abolish the 'Coaching Mafia'.
anuragp replies to Bimal(Ex-IITian)
22 Apr, 2011 03:22 PM
22 Apr, 2011 03:22 PM
Bimal, I am very much familiar with what you are saying. That marksheets can be bought from in states as varied as Bihar and Andhra, and of course, others. It goes without saying that what I am suggesting has to go hand in hand with ensuring that such incidents do not happen, but I agree that practically this is not yet feasible in India. But the thrust of my message is that we need to spread and hedge the risk to students. Imagine an India where each and every marksheet of a student from standard 5 onward is used to see if he has the aptitude *and* interest for Maths or Physics or Engineering. When such systems evolve, then parents cannot train their guns on their kids for 2-3 years like they do for IIT. After all, you cannot keep the pressure on your child for 10 years. I'm with the child here, totally. The parents are only interested in passing on their greed and unfulfilled ambitions onto the child. The teachers are mostly interested in the money out of tuitions and coaching. Forget about the children, how many adults in India have a scientific temper? How many are thinkers, how many are truly creative? You are an IITian, you tell me, how many in your batch wished they did something else, how many truly had passion for the field their AIR ranks thrust on them? How many moved on to Management and Administrative services, or Software? All highly educated, but how many truly visionary and wise? If the questions make you think, you'll agree things are wrong in current system.
Sughosh Bansal (Delhi NCR) replies to anuragp
22 Apr, 2011 03:49 PM
22 Apr, 2011 03:49 PM
Yes things are wrong and going from bad to worse. there should be some consideration to the marks obtained in class 10 and class 12 to judge whether or not the student is consistent and whether or not he/she can withstand the pressure of IIT and/or other premier Engineering institutes. Just becasue mark Sheets can be purchased should not be a factor to ignore this important criteria. Thereafter there shaould be only one entrance examination. If IITs refuse to come on board, let the JEE be the only entrance exam and the rank obtained in this exam be used by every other institute. There cannot and should not be a problem. At least this eliminated preparation for multiple entrance examinations and the resultant pressure and wastage of time and money. Ideally we can have some other measure like SAT of USA to be used as and entrance examination for all the courses by all the colleges and universities. This shall compell all the State Boards come at even level. And foremost requirement today is to have a system of counselling at class 9 and class 11 level where the counseloor can assess the aptitude of the child and recommend to the parents the courses for which the child is best suitable. Assuming that half of the parents would listen, the rat race would be lesser. Reforms may be slow but surely benefit over a period of say 5 years hence. And for this the Politicians need to hand over the academics to the experts.
Solution for education in India: UNIFORM EDUCATION CODE!! 1)Identical syllabus for all subjects throughout the country) ( extra independent modules for region & culture specific topics) 1a) Include compulsory LIFE SKILLS, ETHICS and LOGICAL APTITUDE subjects at all levels of education. 2) A large MULTI-LEVEL multiple-choice-questions (MCQs) exam covering all subjects conducted over a _month_ with questions ranging from factual knowledge to deep deductive understanding, at the end of high-school. 3) The results of the above exam _only_ be used for admission to colleges all over the country. 4) Remove pass-fail concept for class. Introduce pass-fail concept in subjects. (That is dilute the concept of class and promotion) 5) Use all the above 4 rules for all degrees upto Masters level. 6) For admission to any job (Industry, Teaching, Research and PhD), make one single national level exam compulsory. GATE/NET/etc. exists- merge them under a single name and national managing body. All organizations must place atleast 66.66% weightage on the result of this exam for selection. 7) Make 2 years RIGOROUS course work (specialisation subjects 50%, related broad areas 25%, research methodology 25%). Pass marks 75%. Allow unlimited attempts. Give 50% weightage to marks/grades obtained in course work for final decision of awarding PhD. Thats it! :)
Aquestion begs to be asked ,why is the government's focus only on the IIT's..?How many of the less advantaged people in our country have the wherewithal or the resources to get into the IIT's or IIM's?.No doubt these institutions are excellent,but how much % of our youth do they account for...1% or 2%..?What about the rest 99% of our youth..?You cannot restrict excellence to 1% or 2%...I think the government needs to take a much more serious look into building a culture of learning and excellence and not a culture of scoring a 99 percentile or a 90 percent(for what..?ending up in a McKinsey or a Goldmann Sachs and have a false sense of achievement and enlightenment..) for that our overall education system needs a revamp along with our IIT's and IIM's to make India shine.
old is gold ....i think that they messed up when they stopped taking subjective exams ... and then in a stupid move (which is actually a vote stunt) increased the number of iits ... now the new iits are of no use .. and some brain power of country is stuck in them ... its always best to judge student based on subjective responses rather than objective especially when you are not there to interact with them personally.
... When BITS used to select students on the basis of Board Examination of marks of different states ,one particular state used to bag all seats. And many of these students failed miserably under BITS program mes Then BITS introduced an entrance test.. Similarly many students are being selected from another southern states and one North Indian State purely because those students were drilled to do problems without understanding just like people used to memorize Vedas without knowing the meaning. These students too are found to be lagging far behind in IIT class examinations. So a way should be found out to find a just and knowledge testing examination modes.
jee exam as a whole test your mental ability and ur tendency to comprhend complex concepts of PCM and to apply the same thing in a stressed environment.
Belive me guys you can't get in to an IIT if you are a rot learner. you should be real fundu adn tendecy to not only think but apply the same.
getting in to good coaching institute does not really mean getting in to IIT
See the sucess rate of all coaching institutes not even 10%.
Issue is not about criteria of getting int to IITS .issue is what we are learning inside the college.that thing need to be reformed.
I came across a lot of IITians who were not satisfied by the course structure and their pedagogy system of teaching .
need to to change the course structure more empasis on practicals. and good industrial exposure while in college life.
Points to ponder 1. Competition is getting tougher and tougher as the demand supply equation of economics kicks in. Too may aspirants, too few seats. The same is the case with train tickets, affordable housing, kindergarten admission, etc., etc. 2. How much of the complex math, chemistry and physics is used by the engineering folks in real life? Remember, most end up in management jobs after making a beeline for IIMs. Can someone please explain how Feynman's lectures in Physics will help a management trainee sell Atta for Hindustan Lever? Regards, Someone who has studied at IIT and at MIT
India needs a strong technical workforce for industrialization and to perform world class scientific research. These tough exams will not give them. none of the developed countries have a tough exam like IIT. neither Stephen hawking or even Issaic Newton would ever had made into IIT nor any IIT an can ever match stephen hawking or Issaic Newton. My dear countrymen we need people who have passion for science/engineering and who can independently think. Not the ones who slog for 15 hrs a day for 1 year and top IIT or IAS. We need smart thinkers....not just hard workers. Fortunately India has such people but can never fit with such exam system. (Now I cordially invite my fellow countrymen to bash me saying i could never clear IIT etc.. :) Thank you.
this HRD (is crap) replies to Irrelevant
22 Apr, 2011 12:57 PM
22 Apr, 2011 12:57 PM
Some bunch of idles want to prove their worth.1) Why 80% when their is no universal Board & marking system-becoz Mr.Ramasami's state's board give lots of marks & he doesn't know Bihar,orrisa,Gujrat2)What if some1 underperformed in 3hrs-loses his 1 year/career-Right now he can improve in AIEEE/PET..3)Acharya commitee-do we need a committee to copy from western system-SAT 4)Why not improve M.Tech/PHD standards so that students dont go 2 US.5)Why not a bond of at least 2 yrs 2 work in India just like docs need 2 in rural area
Alok Singh (AP) replies to Irrelevant
22 Apr, 2011 11:58 AM
22 Apr, 2011 11:58 AM
The point made by Irrelevant is relevant. I concur.
Abhinav Kumar (USA) replies to Irrelevant
22 Apr, 2011 11:35 AM
22 Apr, 2011 11:35 AM
IIT must be rewamped. The current pattern puts the kids who can't afford specialized coaching at a disadvantage.
We must have something like SAT, GMAT, GRE, etc. But these should not have the language component. Test the aptitude of the students, and make the tests CAT like.
Salim (Gulf) replies to Abhinav Kumar
22 Apr, 2011 12:38 PM
22 Apr, 2011 12:38 PM
The main aim of IITs was to collect the cream of young students who will be poineers in technology and will be a group for which India could have pride. The IITs are not known by its names and faculty ,it is its input at Btech levrel that is precoius. We should have not expanded IITS Six were sufficient. But what to do to politicains who have no genuines brains and are only manipulators. Shame to politicains and I pray for first six IITs
Biju (Kuwait) replies to Abhinav Kumar
22 Apr, 2011 12:35 PM
22 Apr, 2011 12:35 PM
Absolutely correct suggestion. I don't know why the authority is wasting time in impementing in the same line.
ABOLISH COACHING IMMEDIATELY.
I do not no why Govt. or others want to destroy image of these prestigious institutions. Already inducted reservations and what they want? by including all other institutes currupt people can manage even this entrance test . Let the institutes have their own Quality management system. Govt. and profs please donot advise any method that destroys image of IITs
Indian (Gurgaon) replies to AndhraguyinUSA
22 Apr, 2011 03:33 PM
22 Apr, 2011 03:33 PM
Hello my friend,u r very much misunderstood bout JEE.Those who study for hrs
but rn't smart doesn't make upto IIT.Its kinda exam dat
requires innovations,imaginations,ablity 2find da way how2 solv a very new question
whose mathod uhavn't studied anywhere b4.While board xams r nothing
but totally useless.They never judge intelligence because there v always find Ques
that we certainly hav studied in da course.So inovation is far away.Cann't u think if IItians
aren't gud den y big MNC's offer huge salry 2 them.Do they have xtra money
U r talking of strong technical workforce but
also elliminating JEE kinda xam.v need 2 improve our education system thats
severly lacking in many areas.However JEE is da best thing in country.However
much improvement also needed in IIT education system(Not JEE)which is y v raise such ques.
If u r comparing us with developed countries dere is huge difference between our
lifestyles/social structures,infrastructure,economy &so facilities.u r just saying dat If USA
winning 100 medals in Olympics & v just 1 or two its fault of players.they don't hav commitments
& r less hard worker.But bro dere is huge difference of facilities,infrastructure dats making diff
in results.v hav 2 make reforms from down to up;not just keeping eyes on things that v r gud at& when results r nt coming
try 2modify that thing only.Insteed v hav2 improve our weak areas.So,v can't just say developed country's
xams are easy but ours r hard so just follow em
There is nothing wrong with the current format of IIT JEE. Admitting on the basis of board marks would mean that muggers and crammers would get in. As far as the coaching classes are concerned, they will just have to restructure their courses for the new system. They're too smart for a bunch of inefficient, joker politicians. The only way coaching classes can be closed down will be if the IITs and Govt themselves try to provide JEE coaching at a minimal cost to poor students. It would be far better than splurging and wasting billions on wasteful MNREGA schemes. And why are all these people hell bent on destroying IIT? Look at the condition of primary, secondary and Non IIT engineering colleges. Congress, in its 50 years of rule did a few good things for this nation. Now it's understanding its mistakes.
I strongly feel there should be only one entrance exam till we have uniform Class 12 examination system. Why students have to apply and appear in different exams at different places with so much money for each exams. We have to think about poor parents also. I found most of the Class XII pass students get completely confused where to apply and where not to apply. If it is like GATE, it will perfect for class XII students.
I would not suggest looking purely at the marks. BITS already does that.
There is nothing wrong with the current JEE model. The tough it is the better it is at getting hardened minds. But the current model gets unfair by the introduction of the training institutes.
If it is difficult to completely shutdown the training centeres then government should open up JEE training centers for economically backward students.
I think it is time to rule out giving preference based on caste, the really factor should be economic factor.
Now if you are looking at the marks to provide the entrance to the institute then normalize the marks India, as I heard in the states like, Maharastra, Gujrat, Odisha and WB etc they do not give good marks. Where as some of the other states it is easier.
So put some reasearcher from ISI to come up with an optimized plan, if india wants really divert the real talent in the right direction at least at the higher education level.
There are other things which government can do, rather than toying with IITs only, to enhance the higher education quality in India. merely increasing seats in IITs and creating new IITs will not do anything. Infrastructure has to be developed. Students who are not able to get entrance in IITs are deprived of the quality higher education. NITs and other government institutions do not get any high privilege. Government must leave IITs on their own as they are self-sufficient for their development, and try to improve the infrastructure of other higher education institutions, if it is to proportionate the quality education with its increasing population. Simply changing game rules is not going to change the actual game......
Srini (Mumbai) replies to Peter
22 Apr, 2011 12:52 PM
22 Apr, 2011 12:52 PM
Right, the government can't pay decent salaries for IIT Professors and hence miserably fails to attract top-notch talent, but it can of course create coaching centers and staff them and win over private coaching centers which pay a crore for top coaching talent.
Kapil Sibal should consider if the plus 2 exams are dignified and recognized for Indian universities' entry. If not, then post secondary education be made plus 4 so that those who obtained and passed plus 4 would get entry into all colleges, IIT's, IIM's etc....or what naught without another so-called prestigeous JEE exams depending upon their marksheets. Obviously top tier universities would require better scores etc. The current system is a shamble. Indian high schools leavers currently face the most traumatic situations even after becoming toppers in plus 2 exams for entry into some universities in India. Then again, the scams and corruptions on entry to Indian universities will not end unless scams and corruptions cease to exist in India. Pay bribes and you will get a placement for your child into university. But you do need to know who to pay to. That is the India story.
The format of JEE till 2004 i.e a screening exam followed by a main exam would only help restore the talent pool and is by far the best and the toughest format. This is the only way to ensure that the students entering into IIT's are well qualified and helps in maintaining the standards of these prestigious institutes. No compromises on quality should be made at any stage.
I do not understand why every Politician worth his salt wants to leave his mark on the JEE system. Please focus on the Primary Education, IITs can look after themselves. These jokers sitting in Parliaments think that they have the mandate to mess around with institutions which they are too small to nurture, let alone creating one. They have crammed the classes with 60 students where there used to be less then 30. The student to Prof ratio has gone for the toss. IITs are unique in a way they have kept themselves away from the rot that has plagued the regular universities. They have their limitations but the sincerity of the Professors teaching the students, making sure that everything runs smoothly is testament to their devotion to the academics. People like Kapil Sibbal have zero contribution to any of the greatness that these institutes have achieved. One last time please leave these institutes alone. Focus on the rest of India. Try to bring up the average of the Primary, Secondary and the vast colleges that dish out degrees that have zero market value.
Indian (Bangalore) replies to venkat
22 Apr, 2011 09:00 AM
22 Apr, 2011 09:00 AM
Madness,Reading Physics, Maths and chemistry to higher lever doen't given any IITs its due in the level off knowledge. Creating one maths theory and utilizing is more then enough. We are screwing our talent by pussing them for tough level and knowledge. By the way i am IITan.
If you want to improve the System start from class 6 .Improve the syllabus the teaching methods ,the question paper pattern .Change the way the students are educated in the first place and ake them uniform .Then keep a common all India entrance test .This would take 7- 8years from now on . But only this would be in the interest of students. To Politicians - Dont try to change everything overnight .
Consider an entrance test of 100 marks in which 10 lakh students appear. Then on the average there will be 10000 students per each mark! In such a situation, it is impossible to choose 500 students for any institution such as IITs. So it is necessary to have a second test to choose among the top 10000 students which can identify 100 students for each mark and a third test to really identify 1 student per mark. Then only the selection process has any meaning.
No one who has not cleared IIT JEE exam be allowed to tamper with that system as he can not even appreciate the meaning of merit.
Indian (pune) replies to Vijayanand
22 Apr, 2011 09:00 AM
22 Apr, 2011 09:00 AM
this will be very good for the students and very bad for the IIT coaching MAFIA... they spend 100s of crores to lobby to keep IIT Exams separate... please find the ground realities before even assuming anything....
Biju (Kuwait) replies to Indian
22 Apr, 2011 04:19 PM
22 Apr, 2011 04:19 PM
Agreed 100%.
'Coaching Mafias' have invaded the middle class psyche.
ABOLISH COACHING IMMEDIATELY.
This makes it more difficult for students and increases pressure many folds. It will create many new problems rather than solving the current problems, if any are there. You can not have same entrance test for IITs and non-IITs. Its a big insult to IITs and the quality of education IITs provide. Please do not make things worse with your so called creative minds.
krish (California) replies to Rao
22 Apr, 2011 06:40 AM
22 Apr, 2011 06:40 AM
Mr. Rao: I wonder where you got your education. Why are you assuming the students marks will be evenly distributed across 1-100 scale? I know of no real-life student population or real-life exam which will sift out the students that way. More typically it will be a normal distribution with a mean/median which depends on the difficulty of the test concerned and the statistical distribution of the quality of the students. So, depending on which part of the curve an institution is trying to pick from, the problem may be more severe or less severe than you are describing.
Rao replies to krish
22 Apr, 2011 09:11 AM
22 Apr, 2011 09:11 AM
The point is explained in simple language. With normal distribution, the problem will be more acute. The problem is not selecting people with top mark. The problem is with drawing the cut where there will be more than 10000 people for each mark! I hope you can understand.
Vineet (delhi) replies to krish
22 Apr, 2011 08:00 AM
22 Apr, 2011 08:00 AM
@krish i fact i wanna tell you is that now a dayz over 1 lakh students score more than 90% in 12th boards because the exam is very easy and basically cramming based not difficult at all..so how can we judge a student by that paper and also the cut off will be very high and closer to each other which will led to furthur stress to the students..now we have only one exam for IIT entrance..wts the problem in that exam..it's the only thing which IIT'S have..m sincerely telling..as passed out from IIT only..
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